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Hi,
is there any pre-built hardware avaiable for use with XBMC ? Or is there even something in the plans?
I mean face it - XBMC is by far and I mean really far the best MediaCenter on this planet! I have been using it on my Xbox since Day 1 and so far it has never failed me - except of course with HD material.
So far I have been struggling to get it to work with a PC, but it was very complicated for me and the results were not good at all. NVIDIA graphics card don't support Audio over HDMI, with my Laptop hooked up over HDMI I can get sound and it works fine except I have some strange bars on fast moving scenes like V-Sync is disabled or whatever. But on both setups I don't have a remote control and so on.
Now there are set-top boxes available for around 200 bucks like "Popcorn Hour". These are slim, don't use a lot of power come with a remote control and so forth - but the software on each thing is not nearly as good as XBMC.
So I really was hoping that some day I can just purchase a pre-built hardware with XBMC.
Does anyone know if any company has plans to do something like this? So far I have found nothing :(
I wondered that, too - especially now that I read Gamester's reply on the subject...
if XBMC will come with its own host OS I wonder how good the hardware support will be - especially with graphics card that have HDMI output.
But I'm really looking forward to it and I hope that some company might start to build really small HTPC's preconfigured with XBMC. If I had more money to spend I would even start my own company :p
1. Box capable of 720p native h.264 video (and up-scaling to 1080p) without internal storage drive*
- Would ship only with a 4GB or 8GB internal flash memory (USB, SD, or Compact Flash).
*snip*
3. Box capable of 1080p native h.264 video (maybe with DVD-ROM?) without internal storage drive*
- Just like above would ship only with a 4GB or 8GB internal flash memory (USB, SD, or Compact Flash).
I don't see much of a market for #1, as the xbox pretty much serves this purpose, at a very reasonable price. I would love something like number three, as long as it had hdmi (audio and video) out. Kind of something like the eebox, but with a more powerful processor, and better output options.
i'm using that mobo right now and can say i had no NIC trouble,under ubuntu, both hardy and intrepid, but for now there is no hdmi audio support from nvidia and anyway spdif-out is only 2 channels, afaik... so i don't think it's a good choice for a 'top' HTPC
I don't see much of a market for #1, as the xbox pretty much serves this purpose, at a very reasonable price.Apple TV (http://www.apple.com/appletv/) in in that market space and it is sold for $229(US) (http://store.apple.com). Both MSI Wind (http://global.msi.com.tw/html/popup/bb/windpc_en/spec.html) and ASUS Eee Box (http://www.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=24&l2=165) are more powerfull and more flexible than it, buy them at bulk prices without Windows XP/Vista and add a cheap bluetooth remote (like for example Sony PlayStation 3 Blu-ray Disc Remote (http://www.amazon.com/Sony-PlayStation-3-Blu-ray-Disc-Remote/dp/B000M17AVO/)), pre-install and pre-configure XBMC Live on it and you got yourself a nice little set-top-box capable of 720p H.264 playback.
And after all that, I still see XBMC winning the race given the NMT UI and the haphazzard updates they make.
People for sure would pick XBMC given the same decoding/bitstream function.
Sacrifice a little space for UI from heaven is easy.
Last, current NMTs all have external PSU even the HDX1000.
when will it SINK IN that X3100 and OLDER chipset just does NOT cut it for 1080p Gamester ?
Sure you can HOPE Intel fixes it with next driver revision (or the one after that), but I ask you: if it was fixable, why so late in the game ?
of course i was referring to finall customer prices... but as far as i know just mobo, ram, cpu and case would go much beyond 300 euros
at least here in italy, afaik,that price would be somewhere near reality going with some generic 20 euros case, surely not with an htpc one
ordering from abroad would give me a damn pita because of my customs, adding 20/25% to the final price
ok, let me try to configure a full system on newegg...
ASUS P5Q-EM LGA 775 Intel G45 HDMI Micro ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131336) $134.99
Kingston 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model KVR800D2N6K2/2G - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820134635) $33.69
SanDisk 8GB Secure Digital High-Capacity (SDHC) Flash Card Model SDSDRH-008G-A11 - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820171348) $36.99
Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80570E8400 - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037) $169.99
Scythe SCMNJ-1000 80mm Sleeve "NINJA MINI" CPU Cooler - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835185046) $29.99
we are at $405,65 BEFORE ever thinking of a case or an HD or an optical device... for me add 25% (customs and shipping, maybe) and convert in euros... won't be far from 300 euros, again, for the final consumer
where would i cut to go under that price and have a fully featured system??
again.. no gpu vid decoder means = high power cpu..
you can only 'dream' about that setup when xbmc support GPU decoding so.. start programming?
faster is relative.. it seems that mac os needs 'less' cpu power to play the same 1080p movie then a linux pc needs..
but in theory the linux (stripped) should be faster
startups rarely rely on the money of the founder... you have to sell the idea to someone with money :)
I see... I am not a xbmc programmer, but... how much effort has to be made to port xbmc to run on ARM?
This open hardware platform could be a solid base to build a stb project with xbmc, and depending on costs/effort we could try go finding partners to give a shot...
Or do you think it is better finding hardware like http://www.globalsources.com/gsol/I/HD-set-top-manufacturers/b/2000000003844/3000000186561/23932.htm which will run xbmc out-of-the-box in full HD?
Ideas?
"The FBOX will be a customization for the italian market of a Media Center box (and related software) developed by our main venture partner on the basis of the largest free/open source Media Center application, XBMC. Working prototypes of the box are ready and available for evaluation, and a US roll-out is expected in January 2009 as financing."Cool but where did you read that exacly?, I do not see that on the page you linked to ???
I'm putting together a set top box for my living room using the GIGABYTE GA-73PVM-S2H motherboard. It's all working except IR support and the keyboard isn't working, but I'll get both of those sorted out soon. You could put together a similar system and can sell you a hard drive with a copy of my system preloaded. It's a minimalist system based on Debian Lenny, you just turn it on and XMBC loads right up. It would be an easy way to get things up and running without much effort. Let me know if you're interested.
Is it even possible to get all that hardware for 250 euros? Or am i just being too skeptical? ???
Especially with a 2000GB (2TB) Hard drive, wi-fi, blutooth, tv-tuner and fancy remote.Yeah it does not seem like they thought that part through. Two 1TB drives will probably add at least $200 to the price of the hardware, and a TV-tuner almost another $50, so both harddrives and TV-tuner would have to be made optional to keep cost down.
IMHO best would be only to sell a box with a 8GB solid-state flash memory (for example, integrated USB-stick, Compact Flash, or NAND), as that should be enough storage for the operating-system, software, and cache for databases and coverart, fanart and thumbnails. All audio/video media files would have to be streamed of a local network or the internet by default, then maybe also have the box offer a easy slot-in for an optional harddrive (5400RPM 2,5" or 3,5" as 7200RPM drives run too hot and requires a fan for active cooling).
Maybe do what Popcorn Hour does and offer one model with an internal harddrive and one without, and the user can still slot-in a 2,5" harddrive on their own on the model that comes without, (and upgrade the harddrive to a larger one in the model that comes with a harddrive).
All the suggestions look good but are we looking to build a box with off the shelf products or bespoke built parts?
All standard off the shelf products are easy to sort and put together but anyone can do it for themselves cheaper, than it would be sold for.
Any off the shelf motherboards and cases etc will have parts / options not needed therefore wasted money.
If we used a dedicated motherboard and/or cases they would only need to include what we needed so therefore reducing cost.
As with all of this you would need to know interested numbers to work out viability.
We need someway to get and idea of numbers interested in buying to work out costs and way to go forward.
ps e-sata is very common now days just look on sky's HD box.
I'm not sure that box should be just a small form factor pc as components are renewed constantly with new boards etc. This would make the box nonstandard and hard to support.
A hardware vendor capable of building everything from scratch only with the needed hardware would be the best bet. That way 10's of 1000's could be made cheaply and they would all work the same just like the Xbox does.
Regarding the remote, I don't feel this is important. People often want to use a programmable remote like the Harmoney to keep the number down. A good remote is not cheap to make.
The list I made earlier pretty much listed my lowest standard. I'm not interrested in anything that doesn't do 1080p24 over HDMI1.3a with DTS+Dolby HD formats. This is already supported by my Tvix which uses the Sigma chipset but lacks a good mediacenter like XBMC. So until a box exist that does this a good with XBMC exist, I'm not buying.
Formfactor is not really as important as noise and proper blu-ray rip playback (not talking menus)
This system sounds like crap. :(
It would be nice if we could gather our own hardware requirements and make a commitment to a hardware vendor who would build the unit at an agreed price if for example we could get a certain number of persons committed to buying this unit.
Features I require as a minimum for killer mediacenter:
* Small Form Factor
* Silent
* HDMI 1.3a
* Capable of playing 1920x1080p content at 24 fps via HDMI
* Outputting HD sound formats via HDMI
* USB Port
* Gigabit NIC
* Optical drive. Possibly a blu-ray drive for future support
* (Optinal harddrive possible for those who don't stream)
Skrew SD outputs to keep cost down. No composite, s-video or scart outputs, but I think we need component output and optical/coax for some users to be interrested.
Skrew tuners. Software can be written to make other boxes record and stream live TV like done with the Tuxbox code by Geminiserver.
I think a realistic price would be $700-800
My Tvix 6500 actually cover most of these requirements, but it lacks an important feature... XBMC!
Well for me the choice of the graphics card is important since I need one with HDMI output which also transfers sound - I don't know if the mainboards with onboard HDMI can do this!
And I don't even need a HD in this box, if I can boot the system off a USB stick it would be fine. And the system needs to be able to run without keyboard / mouse attached, has to autoboot into XBMC and be completly controlable via a remote control. And if I want to update XBMC (maybe they will include an online update option at some point which would be good) I would just pull the USB stick (or thumb drive I think it's called in the US) and update the software on another PC.
Oh and it would be great if one could switch on and off the system via the Remote Control but I think that's not possible.
If it's quiet and has low power consumption I would gladly buy it!
Both lack HDMI output plus who wants 720p ? Personally I would like to purchase something that is future proof, and 1080p will be the standard for quite a while I guess.
And the Market is there, otherwise devices like Popcorn Hour or DVICO Tvix Stations wouldn't pop up every month. Actually the market for these Media Streamers is just about to start.
Here's a small project I completed that only cost me about $280 and it plays everything I throw at it.
Custom HTPC inside a Tivo case (http://www.johnfatica.com/custom-home-theater-pc-htpc/)
didn't the other 4 pages go on about how an atom isn't strong enough for 1080p and can barely handle 720p, but then again this could all change with GPU acceleration...
ow wait:GMA 950 graphics
Yeah i know, read the previous posts but it depends on user / person as i don't have/need a HDTV that would be a enough as i dont need it run 1080p or 720p
This thread is really going off-topic as you are all discussing building custom and niche HTPC boxes (where there already are hundreds of other threads about).
MacDiner :: All You Can Eat Apple and Macintosh News ::::
more for many of Microsofts partners to approve it and set up Theres no way Apple could profitably sell an $80 iWork for Windows or for Linux.
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This thread was really started to discuss building a set-top-box style box in bulk for the masses which XBMC could be pre-installed onto and sold in at retail, sure it could use some standard computer parts, but you can not expect it to meet all your dreams and desires for the price that you can sell such commercial boxes for.
You have to apply The Law of Diminishing Return "the majority of the effort should be invested in implementing features which have the most benefit and widest general usage by the potential users".
So forget about HDMI 1.3 and audio over HDMI, I am sure that the majority of potential buyers would be happy with DVI out (with a DVI to HDMI adapter included) and SP/DIF optical out for audio.
Now back on topic:
iBase MI940 looks a motherboard that you has the potential of building a powerful enough system for 1080p is the price is right and since it is a Mini-ITX board it could easily fit a set-top-box:
http://www.ibase.com.tw/mi940.htm
:nod:
People for sure would pick XBMC given the same decoding/bitstream function.
Sacrifice a little space for UI from heaven is easy. This person sure wouldn't. I'll sacrifice a some UI for a good deal of space. The current difference between a $200 NMT and a cheap big setup or a pricy small setup is a big gap, so "a little space" is not the correct descriptor. As soon as something reasonably small and reasonably cheap for XBMC is available, I'm all over it. I think a good UI is huge, but so is real estate and appearance/noise.Last, current NMTs all have external PSU even the HDX1000.So? The PSU is fanless, small footprint, etc. What would be the complaint? I'd prefer something internal, but it is so far down the list of wants (much less the needs), that it doesn't even enter my equation. Whatever I get will plug into the wall, and a little plastic box along the cord doesn't bother me, 20-60 times the physical volume and noise does.
My current setup plays all content and outputs to my tv at 1080, optical sound out giving 5.1. its quiet as i aquired a silent fanless psu and changed the hard drive to a CF card. Only thing that needs changing is to slow the dvd drive down and limit the noise on it.
it starts fast is quiet and i don't think you need anymore?
Am very interested in creating a xbmc powered Linux box i was been looking at various options: what about using this as a setup box
- Intel D945GCLF Atom Motherboard with a Atom 230 1.6GHz CPU
- Noah 3988 Mini-ITX Case measuring just 97 x 273 x 202mm
- 1GB of DDR2 667 RAM
- Seagate Barracuda 320GB 7200.10 3.5in SATA HDD 8MB Cache
- All required cables and adapters.
£175.08 inc. VAT / 221.68 inc. VAT
http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=44
You guys have to remember that a company would not put together a such package for free and only change for the parts, shipping and handling. They will want to make a profit, ...yes even if they are selling it with free software, they are charging for the service of a pre-packing product that will be pre-installed, pre-configured and works out-of-the-box.
So in conclusion, any companies making these would have to be able to source the hardware really cheap be make it worth their while.
Honestly, I don't see a market for put together box using off the shelf component.
Problem with a motherboard is that new versions appear every 3 month and old ones are not produces anymore. New boards means new needs for drivers, instabilities.
A platform must live more than 3 months.
CPU decoding even if the speed catches up is never good compared to a dedicated chip like the sigma. Power consumption must be a factor also, because this makes a hit on heat and noise also.
XBMC hardware box should be silent and low power. Only noise should come from the mechanical 2.5" harddrive that one might use until SSD's are cheap enough. Media on a NAS elsewhere
I'm afraid I have to live with my Tvix 6500 for a good long time :(
I never heard of a other set-top-box with E-SATA port(?), USB is enough IMHO. Since it would still have be x86 (computer based) HDMI 1.3a is probably out of the question, and audio over HDMI today under Linux totally depends on picking a chipset that is already support by ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Main_Page).
Today I almost think that built-in wireless is a must, but it could be made optional to keep cost down.
IMO, until we get GPU video acceleration in XBMC it will be much easier to just look at putting together a box that only capable of 720p playback now, wait 6-months to start worrying about 1080p as by that time newer hardware have arrived and prices have dropped. Putting together a 720p box today will require much less CPU power, and not a state-of-the-art GPU which is almost required for 1080p today.
I think Atom Nano will probably be a good choice for 720p, look at MSI Wind (http://global.msi.com.tw/html/popup/bb/windpc_en/spec.html) and ASUS Eee Box (http://www.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=24&l2=165), just as examples.
I think that the remote that will be included is otherwise going to be the most important factor.
I agree with with about the recommended retail price (RRP), no more than €300 RRP for 1080p playback, and no more than €200 RRP for 720p (1080p upscale) playback.
Sounds great. I really hope we get to see this in 2009 with XBMC!
Yeah but that one doesn't play HD content :(
Cool but where did you read that exacly?, I do not see that on the page you linked to ???
I found this.. (http://www.telematicsfreedom.org/en/projects/freedom-box)
Sounds very cool, i wander why we have not heard more, maybe i just missed it, or is it top secret?
Shorty
Yeah it does not seem like they thought that part through. Two 1TB drives will probably add at least $200 to the price of the hardware, and a TV-tuner almost another $50, so both harddrives and TV-tuner would have to be made optional to keep cost down.
IMHO best would be only to sell a box with a 8GB solid-state flash memory (for example, integrated USB-stick, Compact Flash, or NAND), as that should be enough storage for the operating-system, software, and cache for databases and coverart, fanart and thumbnails. All audio/video media files would have to be streamed of a local network or the internet by default, then maybe also have the box offer a easy slot-in for an optional harddrive (5400RPM 2,5" or 3,5" as 7200RPM drives run too hot and requires a fan for active cooling).
Maybe do what Popcorn Hour does and offer one model with an internal harddrive and one without, and the user can still slot-in a 2,5" harddrive on their own on the model that comes without, (and upgrade the harddrive to a larger one in the model that comes with a harddrive).
hmm there are some motherboard with optional embedded linux, have'n't had any of them yet, going to look thro them and see if there is any nices in the list
example: http://www.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=3&l2=11&l3=572&l4=0&model=1872&modelmenu=1
down side is ofcourse that i haven't found one thats matx & has hdmi (yet)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splashtop
Splashtop seems to work with a 512MB flash memory embedded on the PC motherboard.[6] A proprietary core engine starts at the BIOS boot and loads a specialized Linux distribution called a "Virtual Appliance Environment" (VAE). While running this VAE, the user can launch "Virtual Appliances" (VA). Skype is a VA, for instance.[7]
The processor in the Neuros is ARM, which xbmc cannot run on.
Cannot is a strong statement, if it were ported to ARM it could - it just hasn't been.
Cannot is a strong statement, if it were ported to ARM it could - it just hasn't been.
Very true.
Fixed for correctness:
The processor in the Neuros is ARM, which xbmc cannot currently run on.
Newer Intel chips have increased size and complexity due to things like Trusted Computing and Hardware Virtualization, which seem like things that would be of little use to this type of project, and of more use to those wishing to control what consumers can do with their purposes.
Hopefully the EEE Box is enough of a success to warrant a 2nd generation.
Umm, TPM is primarily done via support chips and so far as I have heard the CPU hasn't been modified to support it. Used properly TPM gains a great deal of security. VX instructions certainly add some complexity but it's hardly so bad as all that and could possibly come in handy - who knows. VX is hardly allowing someone else control over your computer either - FUD. Hypervisors can be pretty handy to say the least although perhaps not particularly suited for a HTPC.
Certainly something cheaper with lower power needs would be nice but I hardly see a big scary monster in today's hardware other than the costs.
Plenty.
Is it even possible to get all that hardware for 250 euros? Or am i just being too skeptical? ???
Especially with a 2000GB (2TB) Hard drive, wi-fi, blutooth, tv-tuner and fancy remote.
Could be some sort of part ownership/rental deal, but it doesn't seem the sort of thing they stand for?
Shorty
@icekiller, there is a separate discussion thread about Splashtop (a.k.a. ExpressGate) here:
http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=30679
PS! As long as Splashtop (a.k.a. ExpressGate) is a closed system that discussion is moot.
It you are interested in an open alternative then checkout CoreBoot (formerly LinuxBIOS) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coreboot)
Another interesting piece of hardware I've been watching is the neuros OSD2. Neuros is stepping out the media center GUI market and investing in a "open hardware" platform. Their dev box (http://store.neurostechnology.com/neuros-osd2-platform-p-55.html) promisses to be an open platform on which third parties can develop multimedia applications for. Full specs are here (pitty the partial support to 1080p): http://wiki.neurostechnology.com/index.php/OSD2.0_HD_Specifications
The processor in the Neuros is ARM, which xbmc cannot run on.
The strange bars are probably caused by Compiz. You must disable it.
I'm not interrested in anything that doesn't do 1080p24 over HDMI1.3a with DTS+Dolby HD formats. This is already supported by my Tvix which uses the Sigma chipset but lacks a good mediacenter like XBMC. So until a box exist that does this a good with XBMC exist, I'm not buying.
I agree, in order to make XBMC main stream or at least cut into the HD media streamer market currently dominated by TVIX or NMT based players, bitstream of advance audio is a must.
I think the only solution here is someone would make a customized HDMI 1.3 motherboard and write a special version of ffmpeg for this MB to enable the HD audio bitstream or even off load the video decoding.
Of course, if someone could port XBMC to SoC such as Sigma Design 8654/8644, that would be perfect also.
But I doubt 500Mhz 8654 would be fast enough for XBMC UI engine.
Honestly, I don't see a market for put together box using off the shelf component.
If we then press in "LEADTEK WINFAST PXVC1100" are we probably home free.
http://xtreview.com/addcomment-id-6364-view-Leadtek-winFast-pxVC1100.htmlXBMC does currently not support GPU video decoding acceleration (an any platform), see:
http://xbmc.org/wiki/?title=Hardware_Accelerated_Video_Decoding
http://xbmc.org/wiki/?title=GSoC_-_GPU_Assisted_Video_Decoding
So adding that card today would only add cost, not value.
CPU decoding even if the speed catches up is never good compared to a dedicated chip like the sigma. Power consumption must be a factor also, because this makes a hit on heat and noise also.
XBMC hardware box should be silent and low power. Only noise should come from the mechanical 2.5" harddrive that one might use until SSD's are cheap enough. Media on a NAS elsewhere
I'm afraid I have to live with my Tvix 6500 for a good long time :(
Couldn't disagree more. The very reason I am building my own box is because of the problems with my Tvix. Hangs for no apparent reason playing DVDs. This is a problem that has been known for more than a year and no fix from the manufacturer. No VFR support. Apparently no further firmware development. USB loses connectivity regularly. FTP server crashes all the time.
There is nothing I can do about fixing it. Yes, it is a pretty cool little box. However, somewhere else I have outlined the box I intend to build, close to as quiet as the Tvix, micro ATX case, yes a little bigger than the Tvix but still set top size. I can apply the latest software maintenance. I am not locked down by a chip which can do x things. A 40-50 dollar CPU can do anything that is necessary and do anything that may come along in the future. If not, I'll pop in a bigger CPU and don't have to buy a whole new box.
I can do my own firmware upgrades, heck, build from SVN if necessary.
I can run a reliable FTP server. I can pop in a hard drive any size, not just 1TB as in the Tvix.
Mind you, I am not terribly disappointed by that box but when I found out it doesn't support h.264 VFR I decided to give up on it. I opened a problem with them and it took four months to get an answer.
Thanks, but no thanks.
a system capable of 1080p decoding & output (network streaming) should cost no more than 300 Eur (incl VAT/TAX). Let's call this the basic system and this cost is the "pain threshold".
This system includes atleast:
*It's Silent
*Gigabit network
*E-Sata port
*USB2 and maybe Firewire
*HDMI 1.3a
*Component output
*Optical/coax audio output
*SSD storage maybe 4/8 GB
*1-2GB of Ram
*some type of Remote
extras over this includes
*optical media support (dvd / bluray)
*tv tuner
*more advanced remote options
*wifi
*local storage for media (A HDD)
this spec if by no means final, it's just what I visualize when I gave this 10 mins thought
Worth checking this out (and possibly starting a porting project)...
http://www.crunchgear.com/2008/08/19/high-def-coming-to-neuros-osd20-platform/
I think that if someone with the right contacts in Asia could build a think similar to the popcorn hour it will be a top seller. The material needed:
A G45 board as this already has hardware decoding of HD videos and all the possible ports.
A lower wattage processor.
A micro-atx or mini-atx case.
A remote.
And price under 200 .
Well it must be driver issues as people reports that XBMC for Mac have no problems with 1080p output on the Mac Mini with its Intel GMA950 graphics.
then get an old Xbox !
I am not worrying about GPU based decoding.
CPU will get fast enough and I just don't see >50Mbs H.264 HP@L4 or >50Mbs VC1 AP@L3 for the consumer market in the next 5-10 years.
E8400 could already decode 99% of the bluray titles, is it?
The area worth effort is
1:
Smooth co-op between ffmpeg/XBMC UI egine and HDMI driver on mainstream MB to outpout 1080p23.97/24/25/30 and 1080i/50/60 based on source frame rate or user force choice.
2:
Bitstream of the next generation audio or at least decoding them into 5.1/7.1 LPCM and pass via HDMI untouched.
topic starter wanted to put a E2100 celeron in it..
this discussion is becoming quite interesting... some times ago i found myself thinking about making a 'lot' of xbmc machines for some of my friends and/or for my wife's website users, so started thinking what would be needed for such a system...if we want a real set-top box i think we can forget about standard hardware, but let's say we want something 'comparable' with a set-top box... of course, i started with what i have right now, so based my thoughts on my system
right now i have an evga 630i-7150 with a Q6600 and 2gb ram 667, 300 gb hd, DVD-RW, a DVB-S card and a DVB-T usb stick, all contained in an ahanix d-vine mce303 with integrated remote, vfd and card reader... how does this system go with ultabrutal requests (which i think could be embraced as a standard)?
Small Form Factor A: well, quite
Silent A: not really
HDMI 1.3a A: Don't think so
Capable of playing 1920x1080p content at 24 fps via HDMI A: yes, but only if i don't put xbmc native resolution at 1080p but go fullscreen 'after' starting
Outputting HD sound formats via HDMI A: No, no hdmi audio support from Nvidia yet, as of 177.70
USB Port a: yes
Gigabit NIC A: yes
Optical drive. Possibly a blu-ray drive for future support A: i have one right now, but NOT in my htpc system (would be unuseful right now)
(Optinal harddrive possible for those who don't stream) A: yes
so, what would i do to make it better? i think (again, starting with this hardware as a base) i would change mobo, maybe to go with something based on G45 Express, which would grant me HDMI audio under intrepid (i think not yet under hardy) and (did anyone test it?) 1080p output without skipping any frames, would change the Q6600 with a 'colder' (and maybe a little cheaper) E8400, use a ninja mini as a cooler, maybe in fanless mode (does the mini go fanless?).
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this system, toghether with my actual case, would cost somewhere near 500-550 euros... can this be a start?
You guys have to remember that a company would not put together a such package for free and only change for the parts, shipping and handling. They will want to make a profit, ...yes even if they are selling it with free software, they are charging for the service of a pre-packing product that will be pre-installed, pre-configured and works out-of-the-box.
So in conclusion, any companies making these would have to be able to source the hardware really cheap be make it worth their while.
If it was easy, anyone could do it ;)
I am actually working on distributing a shuttle based system which will run xbmc on top of ubuntu hardy. I plan to have it pre-configured with an IR based remote and hardware capable of running 1080p video w/ 5.1 surround sound. I'll post updates when I get closer to getting the project up and running.
-tret
So forget about HDMI 1.3 and audio over HDMI, I am sure that the majority of potential buyers would be happy with DVI out (with a DVI to HDMI adapter included) and SP/DIF optical out for audio.
I can say from my new X4500HD that I have trouble using DVI -> HDMI and from what I've read many Intel GPU's have these problems. So HDMI is probably good to have.
I see more use of having HDMI, VGA and Component than DVI even if it contains the VGA usually. It should look set on top box aswell ;)
NMTs can't touch XBMC's interface, not even close.
XBMC can't touch NMT's cost and footprint.
XBMC footprint would catch up as the CPU became more powerful. It is pretty close now with ITX MB.
NMT UI is a whole different matter.
My speculation is that their base unit will be 250EURO, with much more modest hardware specs. Then you'll be able to add on crap like a tv tuner and two 1TB HDD's. It's just marketing.
if XBMC will come with its own host OS I wonder how good the hardware support will be - especially with graphics card that have HDMI output.
But I'm really looking forward to it and I hope that some company might start to build really small HTPC's preconfigured with XBMC. If I had more money to spend I would even start my own company :p
If there would ever be a XBMC Set on top box I can bet on that it would probably run linux underneath.
ehm, i wrote while gamester was replying... ok, in a 720p view it could be done, but would you buy a 720p set-top box with a wonderful backend (xbmc) to go 720p on a surely 1080p 50'' lcd tv?
i think the target user wouldn't be the 'hit power on/hit power off' user (we all know what we are talking about, don't we, we all know that there are bugs, there are crashes) but someone more experienced than that, with some basic linux knowledge to really rule the machine... or am i completely wrong?
No that I know of, but you or anyone else are more than welcomed to make and sell such XBMC for Linux pre-configured boxes as long as you comply with the GPL.
Checkout:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html
and
http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Commercial_MythTV_System
Note! Team-XBMC will be coming out with the first Beta of a Live version of XBMC in a couple of weeks from now (and a stable version in the end of October), it will have the operating-system embedded and be really easy to install by anyone who wants XBMC in a dedicated set-top-box stype setup.
PS! This have been asked and discussed here in these forums before, I just do not have time to search for those threads just now.
XBMC for Linux or XBMC Live (which is what would be used) have today as I see it two or four target audience brackets.
1. Box capable of 720p native h.264 video (and up-scaling to 1080p) without internal storage drive*
- Would ship only with a 4GB or 8GB internal flash memory (USB, SD, or Compact Flash).
2. Same as Box "1" but shipping with a 2,5" harddrive (preferably slot-in and easy to replace/swap)
3. Box capable of 1080p native h.264 video (maybe with DVD-ROM?) without internal storage drive*
- Just like above would ship only with a 4GB or 8GB internal flash memory (USB, SD, or Compact Flash).
4. Same as Box "3" but shipping with a 2,5" harddrive (preferably slot-in and easy to replace/swap)
@Mike34, e-mail me if you are serious about putting something together and want some help.
(why can't I find the edit button)
Also, with current high-def media, it doesn't make much sense to keep it stored locally, as you very quickly run into space issues for a set-top box type device.
again.. no gpu vid decoder means = high power cpu..
you can only 'dream' about that setup when xbmc support GPU decoding so.. start programming?
I am not worrying about GPU based decoding.
CPU will get fast enough and I just don't see >50Mbs H.264 HP@L4 or >50Mbs VC1 AP@L3 for the consumer market in the next 5-10 years.
E8400 could already decode 99% of the bluray titles, is it?
The area worth effort is
1:
Smooth co-op between ffmpeg/XBMC UI egine and HDMI driver on mainstream MB to outpout 1080p23.97/24/25/30 and 1080i/50/60 based on source frame rate or user force choice.
2:
Bitstream of the next generation audio or at least decoding them into 5.1/7.1 LPCM and pass via HDMI untouched.
I had a similar distaste with Popcorn Hour a110. It is a fantastic device that plays just about anything but the interface is a POS. I pay $234 including shipping. I had it one night and then sold it on ebay for $270 including shipping and upgraded my htpc to play anything. That was through zipzoomfly.com for $253 including shipping. Here is the rundown.
AMD 6000+ 2mb Cache 89w $92
GIGABYTE GA-M78SM-S2H $71
2GB OCZ PC-6400 Memory $41.00
Coolmaster Hyper 212 Heatsink and Fan $35.00
I already had the case, psu and storage.
The Hyper 212 is completely silent IMO. Even when compiling XBMC it only gets upto 1400rpm/120F and I cannot hear it. This does require a decent mid-tower of 6.5in+ tall HTPC case like the Silverstone LC13B-E
JKing
Plus, having HDMI built in looks more professional than having converter cords all over.
Regarding E-Sata, it's an emerging way to connect external HDD's. Intel's newest mini pc's have this.
when you buy components separately, you pay overhead for every component. this adds up, trust me
I have no idea how much you would save if the unit is "put together" in asia, where all components are fabricated anyhow, ala Mac Mini etc (I don't care for the Mini formfactor, it's not crucial)
This thread is really going off-topic as you are all discussing building custom and niche HTPC boxes (where there already are hundreds of other threads about).
This thread was really started to discuss building a set-top-box style box in bulk for the masses which XBMC could be pre-installed onto and sold in at retail, sure it could use some standard computer parts, but you can not expect it to meet all your dreams and desires for the price that you can sell such commercial boxes for.
You have to apply The Law of Diminishing Return "the majority of the effort should be invested in implementing features which have the most benefit and widest general usage by the potential users".
So forget about HDMI 1.3 and audio over HDMI, I am sure that the majority of potential buyers would be happy with DVI out (with a DVI to HDMI adapter included) and SP/DIF optical out for audio.
Now back on topic:
iBase MI940 looks a motherboard that you has the potential of building a powerful enough system for 1080p is the price is right and since it is a Mini-ITX board it could easily fit a set-top-box:
http://www.ibase.com.tw/mi940.htm
:nod:
Mmm ibase M1940 would make it, If we then press in "LEADTEK WINFAST PXVC1100" are we probably home free.
http://xtreview.com/addcomment-id-6364-view-Leadtek-winFast-pxVC1100.html
Just caught this thread and it reminded me of a project I read about on the boxee forums. Certainly sounds like an interesting proposition.
http://www.telematicsfreedom.org/en/project/14/floss-media-center-state-art
"The FBOX will be a customization for the italian market of a Media Center box (and related software) developed by our main venture partner on the basis of the largest free/open source Media Center application, XBMC. Working prototypes of the box are ready and available for evaluation, and a US roll-out is expected in January 2009 as financing."
Also looks like the XBMC team is involved - http://xbmc.org/blog/2008/07/21/telematics-freedom-foundation-foss-survey/
i don't know if i would call the ITX MB footprint "pretty close." Popcorn hour is basically a "wide router", no fan, (albeit crappy) remote, ~10 W of power running, for $200. If you go for the IStar mini which doesn't support internal hard drive, it's even smaller, with a small optional fan for cooling. As much as I rail on their UI being crappy, I do think their footprint is in a league of it's own.
Everytime I start looking at building a cheap, compact HTPC, the case and power supply alone puts me in the ball park of the NMTs. Small cases seem to be ridiculously priced. I can build a full size computer on the cheap that will do 1080p, but not something set top and low power.
And after all that, I still see XBMC winning the race given the NMT UI and the haphazzard updates they make.
Agreed. I dont see how a small plastic and metal case can cost in the high $100 range! I think for this to happen a custom made case would be a must. (As in made by us)
If anyone is interested in a pre-built box it is something i could help with.
I have access to a number of suppliers and could get discount if numbers are decent enough. I also have the facility to build and install.
I'm thinking if we could sort a decent spec out, complete with options for later upgrades then i could start getting prices.
If enough people were interested I could then supply some boxes to the XMBC team to optimise a install.
I think the simpler it is with auto upgrade scripts and multiple remote configs etc the more range of people might be interested.
Worth thinking about?
Apple TV (http://www.apple.com/appletv/) in in that market space and it is sold for $229(US) (http://store.apple.com). Both MSI Wind (http://global.msi.com.tw/html/popup/bb/windpc_en/spec.html) and ASUS Eee Box (http://www.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=24&l2=165) are more powerfull and more flexible than it, buy them at bulk prices without Windows XP/Vista and add a cheap bluetooth remote (like for example Sony PlayStation 3 Blu-ray Disc Remote (http://www.amazon.com/Sony-PlayStation-3-Blu-ray-Disc-Remote/dp/B000M17AVO/)), pre-install and pre-configure XBMC Live on it and you got yourself a nice little set-top-box capable of 720p H.264 playback.
I have the Aspire One (a MSI Wind clone) and I can say that it can handle720p but barely. It worked on rather low bitrate stuff. I haven't done very thorough testing though but I'd say it is just a bit low specc.
Also if you attach it to 1080p and run a 720p source the GPU will have to much to handle.
When the atom dual core comes I'm sure it will be an awesome choice for 720p though.
Upgrading xbmc is actually quite easy, just a few commands. A patchstick is a good idea. That would work great. Audio over HDMI is a concern, but I'm sure there is a workaround.
Jacob
Am very interested in creating a xbmc powered Linux box i was been looking at various options: what about using this as a setup box
didn't the other 4 pages go on about how an atom isn't strong enough for 1080p and can barely handle 720p, but then again this could all change with GPU acceleration...
ow wait:GMA 950 graphics
First time I heard anything about it :oo:
hi ...
I'm part of the "Freedom Box" project. We are in the phase of identifying the best (and cost-effective) hardware specs for a standard hardware platform to base the project (and in this way avoid compatibility problems and/or missing drivers).
What is your impression on the eeeBox announced here? http://www.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=24&l2=165&l3=0&l4=0&model=2289&modelmenu=2
Would it be able to play 720p and 1080p content? Would gnu/linux run on it?
We are open to anyone willing to help draft a stb spec that would suit the goal of mass-production/distribution of floss stb's.
Another interesting piece of hardware I've been watching is the neuros OSD2. Neuros is stepping out the media center GUI market and investing in a "open hardware" platform. Their dev box (http://store.neurostechnology.com/neuros-osd2-platform-p-55.html) promisses to be an open platform on which third parties can develop multimedia applications for. Full specs are here (pitty the partial support to 1080p): http://wiki.neurostechnology.com/index.php/OSD2.0_HD_Specifications
XBMC footprint would catch up as the CPU became more powerful. It is pretty close now with ITX MB.
NMT UI is a whole different matter.i don't know if i would call the ITX MB footprint "pretty close." Popcorn hour is basically a "wide router", no fan, (albeit crappy) remote, ~10 W of power running, for $200. If you go for the IStar mini which doesn't support internal hard drive, it's even smaller, with a small optional fan for cooling. As much as I rail on their UI being crappy, I do think their footprint is in a league of it's own.
Everytime I start looking at building a cheap, compact HTPC, the case and power supply alone puts me in the ball park of the NMTs. Small cases seem to be ridiculously priced. I can build a full size computer on the cheap that will do 1080p, but not something set top and low power.
And after all that, I still see XBMC winning the race given the NMT UI and the haphazzard updates they make.
if XBMC will come with its own host OS I wonder how good the hardware support will be - especially with graphics card that have HDMI output.
But I'm really looking forward to it and I hope that some company might start to build really small HTPC's preconfigured with XBMC. If I had more money to spend I would even start my own company :p
The hardware support it currently has is pretty good IMO and it's NOT hard to put together a system that will run it successfully. There are vendors building MythTV boxes, I see now reason why a vendor like that couldn't be found as XBMC matures. I suppose one of the hardest things might be legal issues in places like the US where the deCSS code could still be a problem.
Then get another xbox for $60 at game stop.
Back to the original topic...pre-built set-top box with xbmc... I am thinking of doing something like this in a small scale..Basically to friends and family and friends of friends kinda people. I can build a complete hardware while lead from the forums here. My question is, I am also looking to provide a PVR capability to this whole setup. I read that mythtv is getting integrated into the XBMC frontend. Is this available now? Most people who liked my setup needed to pause and record live tv. Tips on these things will help me formalizing this project.
Thanks in advance.
Gentoo
There are probably better answers in future devices like the EEE Box. Intel is working on multi-core system on a chip for nettop devices:
The next generation of the Atom, "Lincroft," architecture will be launched in 2H 2009 and is code-named Pineview. It will be used in Netbook/Nettop systems, and feature a system-on-chip (SOC) with an integrated single-channel DDR2 memory controller and an integrated graphics core. Pineview, like Diamondville, will be available in single and dual-core versions. It will feature HyperThreading, and is to be manufactured on a 45nm[26] or 32 nm [27] process.
Intel CEO Paul Otellini has stated that, along with other improvements, Atom (specifically Silverthorne) will shrink to the 32 nm process in 2009.[28] It has been suggested that the Atom will be the first Intel chip to transition to 32 nm due to its small size and low complexity.[29] A 32 nm Atom is expected to be demoed at the upcoming San Francisco IDF.
Newer Intel chips have increased size and complexity due to things like Trusted Computing and Hardware Virtualization, which seem like things that would be of little use to this type of project, and of more use to those wishing to control what consumers can do with their purposes.
Hopefully the EEE Box is enough of a success to warrant a 2nd generation.
spdif is the same as optical. It can generally take 2 channels of PCM at 48kHz, or ofcourse multiple channels if encoded as AC3 or DTS.
seems to me the race for the current HD extender is between:
1. NMT type players getting a slick, easy to use GUI, and
2. XBMC linux getting a simple, compact hardware setup.
NMTs can't touch XBMC's interface, not even close.
XBMC can't touch NMT's cost and footprint.
I own an NMT, and am personally hoping XBMC wins the above race, 'cause I don't seem the NMT in it's current form ever reaching an efficient interface.
I think you folks are right.
They must have a range of options, and they are advertising the best one... but displaying the lowest price.
It'd be pretty cool to see XBMC systems for sale one day.
FWIW, cheapest XBMC system i ever saw was £25 (Xbox, gamestation UK :;): )
Shorty
Still guys, what you are discussing now is how to build a HTPC, that's not really what I meant or wanted (in regards to noise, power consumption, space, etc.).
An early INTEL (not power pc!!) Mac Mini can be had starting ~$450 for a used 1.5 GHz Core Solo. And a brand new Core 2 Duo starts $599 and you get Intel GMA 950, a 60-120 GB HD, 512MB/1GB DDR2, built in 802.11g, built in bluetooth, 10/100/1000 ethernet, Apple remote, slot-loading DVD drive (possible DVD-RW), analog/digital audio out, DVI/VGA out (HDMI via $4 adapter from monoprice), plenty of usb 2.0 ports, and a firewire port. You wipe the sucker clean, load up linux, install XBMC, and it seems like you'd have a beautiful little x86 package for under $500. (I suppose you could stick with OSX but I'm guessing a XBMC setup under linux would be faster?)
The processor, hard drive, and ram can all be upgraded. Hell, the audio, wireless ethernet (to 802.11n), and optical drive (external blu-ray via usb enclosure) can all be upgraded as well through usb. There's no worries about noise (almost nonexistent), no power supply to buy, no case that everything needs to fit inside. Tell me if I'm missing something but how does any custom build beat those features at that price point?
Seems they aren't officially done analyzing the results of their survey. They're due out mid-September sometime. Hopefully they bother to contact us...
i'm using that mobo right now and can say i had no NIC trouble,under ubuntu, both hardy and intrepid, but for now there is no hdmi audio support from nvidia and anyway spdif-out is only 2 channels, afaik... so i don't think it's a good choice for a 'top' HTPC
I still can't believe that spdif is only stereo... Thats ridiculous. If it wasn't for those 2 things that would definitely be the best choice for the price.
If drivers mature abit I'd say the Intel DG45FC could be a valid solution for a system. Its not the cheapest now but should provide all the needed, esata, HDMI and SPDIF without any additions.
Currently I'm having troubles with 1080p in linux (windows works good)
then get an old Xbox !
i have got a xbox (1.6) which dual boots between MS Dashboard and XBMC then applications shortcuts to UnleashX and XDSL but the dvd drive is giving up
Here's a small project I completed that only cost me about $280 and it plays everything I throw at it.
Custom HTPC inside a Tivo case (http://www.johnfatica.com/custom-home-theater-pc-htpc/)
Nice project, its too bad we don't have a reliable supply of TiVO Cases...
again.. no gpu vid decoder means = high power cpu..
you can only 'dream' about that setup when xbmc support GPU decoding so.. start programming?
I'm not good at programming in Linux but in this link (http://xbmc.org/wiki/?title=Hardware_Accelerated_Video_Decoding#Future_ Intel_Technology_-_Video_Acceleration_API_.28VAAPI.29) there is already talk about gpu video decoding, maybe with the help of intel it can me made.
Well, if porting to an open hardware platform like neuros is out of reach (because of time/efforts/etc...), then I think there are only 2 ways to build a mass-production model for a floss media center STB:
* bet on eeebox and similar, like the ASUS NovaP22 (see specs tab: http://promos.asus.com/US/evensite/Nova/index.htm)
* study specs of cheap STB's already in market like those in http://www.globalsources.com/gsol/I/HD-set-top-manufacturers/b/2000000003844/3000000186561/23932.htm and try to get linux+xbmc running
But IMHO, the ideal scenario for mass free/open source media centers in people's living room is something like:
- A set-top box hardware which allows the user to modify it as he/she likes (just like the PC, you can change memory, processor, stack hard-drives...)
- A base O.S. which enables the user to install/uninstall their preferred media center app (I'd personally start with linux+xbmc/boxee, but the platform should be open to others willing to port their app to run on this STB)
- Downloadable/upgradable media center applications available on the web (working pretty much like the apple tv patchstick to install/upgrade xbmc/boxee).
With such base architecture, there would be little or no reason for the masses to buy proprietary boxes or software for media center.
There would be an open hardware standard to run such multimedia apps and enrich the user experience in infinite ways (each media center app will offer something different: tv tunning, social networking, p2p, voip... etc...) and the user is free even to have 2 or 3 installed on their box!
This is what the Freedom Box project is all about. Do you think this is something interesting? If it is... I'd like to invite you to share your ideas and experiences (here or in a separate place if you like). We are open to discuss and build the steps to make this a concrete reality.
Worth checking this out (and possibly starting a porting project)...
http://www.crunchgear.com/2008/08/19/high-def-coming-to-neuros-osd20-platform/@Yuval, see these two related discussion threads:
http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=35139
http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=34562
Kind of off-topic for those wanting something soon though :rolleyes:
Plus, having HDMI built in looks more professional than having converter cords all over.
you let it sound like its a hell..
http://www.mnm-computers.nl/images/Kabels/HDMI/HDMI_M-DVI_F-24_374606.jpg
you wouldn't even notice it..
PopCorn uses Sigma Designs system-on-chip. Porting the code to this platform is far from trivial.....we'd better wait for cheap Intel system-on-chip solutions.
-Yuval
For all of this to work out we need a h264 decoder on a chip that interfaces with ffmpeg/x264. Put it on a mini-pci card or an atom motherboard and everything falls into place.
I think I found a cheaper MOBO (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813188021) on newegg that could handle 1080p. The only problem is that almost a quarter of the reviews say people ran into problems with the NIC, obviously that is a no-go seeing as the majority of people will be streaming media. But its a good value, if the NIC's don't break. IMO I dont think E-SATA should be important on here, since a media center shouldn't need any external HDD's, except for networked ones.
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